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| Blogs > susanbak > thoughts and stuff |
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post women do not have to be humiliated to be submissive men do not have to be bullies to be dominate why are these concepts so easy to understand on a sex site but so difficult to grasp in the world of right wing religion where it is not just taught and preached but integrated in such a fundamental level in a world where women are judged on how many offspring they can produce and men are judged on how well they provide for those offspring basic human dignity is trampled I will never go back to letting anyone have that much control of me the women I know who are still in the lifestyle see me as a heathen and are praying for me the women I know who left the lifestyle did a complete switch they no longer believe in god either and are just as motivated in teaching atheist beliefs as they were in teaching family values I know this is not the place for this but I don't know where else to post it so here we go |
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Susan - it sounds to me like you need some intensive counseling, cult deprogramming, and probably some AlAnon meetings to deal with your alcoholic significant other. You need professional help, not the long-winded rants of people on a sex site. In fact, I'm not altogether sure you should really be in a sex site until you have resolved the internal conflicts you have over religion and morality. You appear to me to be far too vulnerable to be in this environment, which tests the strongest of us who don't have the problems you are dealing with right now. Please be careful.
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Susan: Sorry to see your post was "hijacked" as it were. I hope you did find support in the midst of it. Thankfully I don't know what you're going through, but it's always difficult choosing to walk a path different from that which you were raised in, and which family and friends still follow. I have a friend that chose to follow Wicca back in high school... almost everybody turned against her. I chose in my 20's to follow Islam... thankfully my family only got upset over the fact I don't eat pork, otherwise they just chalk it up to "DSK is weird. We already know that" -- so very many, most by what I've read, experience much of what you have (or worse). I very much support Individual Truth, and finding that which resonates within yourself, so long as no harm is done to others. Or self, though I guess that makes me a meddler haha. As for dominant vs bullying etc. It has been explained to me, long ago, that domineering and dominant are 2 totally different things. Manipulators and Bullies belong in "domineering" group. But a dominant person doesn't require such tactics. I've yet to meet a dominant man in person (at least not one that professes "Dominant" in a D/s type way), but I have had exposure to a domineering man. I loved him but we would have fought to the death, and very nearly did (emotionally and mentally). Regardless... listen to your quiet inner voice, your gut instinct; I'm sure it's maybe more difficult when sometimes that inner voice is reflection of upbringing, but I believe you will do well. My thoughts, prayers, and best wishes go out to you. Not sure if my post really addressed anything in yours. *HUG*
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I would like remove this debate from Susan's blog. Please come to my blog [post 3434698] and if you would like to further debate, lets do it at a more appropriate location rather than this blog post. This thread has been hijacked long enough. Man up, and face me man to man on my blog and my post. Otherwise, enough is enough! ...
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I do not need to name the cult that I was a part of. There are people here who can verify and who were also in this same cult. For someone who is unable to see reason, why should I bother to prove something like that to him? The last three comments are so laughably inaccurate and full of missinformation that I do not know where to start. Since this thread has now been hijacked by an individual who wants to place the focus on himself and cry victim that his version of truth is being attacked, I have nothing more to say. I will, if Susan who is the only one that matters on this blog post requests proof of my background I will provide further but I have already done that so she knows that I know of what I'm talking about. It is her decision on whether she wants to see through your total lack of knowledge and listen to her or not. Mr. Custer, you go back to your little corner of Mysoginstic Nietzsche and leave the religous topics to those of us who have or are living it. There is no point in arguing with someone who believes everything they research on the Internet. ...
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Susan, I apologize if my having asked Bonerdoner to come and offer some words of support appear to you as intimidation. That was not my intent at all. As I know that you are a pastor's kid, as am I, and also Boner is as well, we can at least identify with each other even if we don't always know all of the details. I know that when I was breaking free from my abusive upbringing, it felt like I was alone. Like no one understood. I just want you to know that even here, on a sex site, you are not alone. There are people that understand. The website you mentioned in email, I know you have heard of Bill Gothard and how he relates to Quiverfull. I was Bill Gothard's "chosen one" to help start up part of his ministry in Turkey. I know that Chief who commented earlier will not mind me stating that Bill Gothard, a now disgraced leader, wanted her as one of his "chosen girls." We understand where you are coming from and want to help support you so that you do not have to feel alone. General Custer over there cannot possibly understand as he has never been behind the closed doors of the church. He has never been part of the lifestyle you are trying to break free from. He feels like he is standing alone here, because in fact, he is. Funny how he isn't trying to help support you and hasn't right from the start. I will quote his entire comment since he believes that somehow I have mischaracterized something. "Right wing religion is designed to reaffirm the dominance of men, who think they are superior to women. Since men started the Church, they want to keep power and so they preach beliefs to let them keep power. The only belief that atheism has is that God does not exist. Athiests can believe many other different things and morally they are no different than other people. In my case, I believe that my moral standards are higher than the vast majority of Christians. Those who are athiests often have high moral because they have thought about morality instead of reacting to fear of punishment by God. The strand of thought that is most like my own is called. Humanism. That was his first comment to your original post. Why does Custer feel like he is standing alone? Because you posted something very heartfelt. You posted about attempting to break free from a lifestyle and the struggle that this journey is, and will be for you. His comment back was focused on himself and his own morality, rather than being supportive of you. His comment lacked knowledge of the faith you have been a part of and are now questioning. He states ""Right wing religion is designed to reaffirm the dominance of men, who think they are superior to women. Since men started the Church, they want to keep power and so they preach beliefs to let them keep power." Susan, you yourself know that it is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit who started the church with the assistance of many men AND women. Read the story of Martha and Mary, where Martha was bitching to Mary about how she should be in the kitchen helping the women, and Jesus telling her that Mary has chosen what is better. Luke 10:38-42. Look at Martha and Mary. Mary Magdelene, Johanna and Susanna. All very influential women who played a vital role in humanities starting of the Church. I believe that my moral standards are higher than the vast majority of Christians. I am glad to see that Custer has lowered things down from "The vast majority" to explaining that a majority is 50 + 1. Thanks for clearing that up for us! Again, I'm still wondering why he thinks Susan, that your original post was about HIS morality.  Morality is what we choose. I will give the point to the General that morality is not about any walk of life or faith. Morality is what we make it to be. For someone to say that they believe they have a higher standard of morality over another, IS both arrogant and judgmental. It is placing a judgement on others because who is to say that one person's morals are any better or less than another's. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. John 8  All of this to say, Custer states, "I stand here alone because I am unafraid. I believe in truth, it will protect me and lead to victory. I am not scared to have the light shine on my truth. Maybe we should shine that light on everyone's truth here and let the people see. What is the truth? Lets really talk about the truth. The truth here Susan is that YOU are struggling with something in your personal life. The truth here is that there are those of us who KNOW where you are coming from because we have lived it. The truth is that we are here to support you and are reaching out to you and to you alone. We aren't here to push you around. We are here to answer your questions. To help you through things. To talk to you and support you so that you do not feel like you have to go through this alone. Will Custer survive? Yes, yes he will because this isn't about him at all in any way shape or form. His version of the truth is hidden behind this site's Terms of Use. My version of truth is that I am here saying that whatever you need Susan, whatever questions you want to ask, whatever support you feel will help you break free from your past, I am here to help. THAT is the truth. You can also talk to Chief. We have BEEN there! That is the truth! ...
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1) There is no need to latch on to the "Quiverfull" movement because that is not really what needs to be debated here. Intimidation is not part of the Quiverfull movement. There is NOTHING about Quiverfull that speaks of intimidation. In fact, when Quiverfull is believed as a lifestyle it is a very loving and very equal marriage. Some however, just like in anything, have twisted it into something that is not. To say that intimidation is part of Quiverfull, shows a lack of understanding of what it is, and someone really should learn more about it. As Susan herself has said, "quiverfull is the idea that godly families will trust the lord with their family planning." She is right about that! 2) Not everything is about certain users on this site. Asking for support from people who KNOW and who UNDERSTAND, is NOT intimidation, it is called love and support. Even in a healthy debate, everything is about the original post, and helping Susan break free from something that she does not deserve, and should not be a part of. THAT is what this is about. There is in intimidation. There is no control and there certainly is no fear of debate. Actually, in this case of debate, this is my home turf as far as topic. This is what I grew up. This is what I know. This is what I broke free from. I have a support group that is almost 1,000 members strong that I helped start. That support group spawned a public forum, designed to help those just like Susan. The people I have met in my life, the people that I know now, there is no fear of debating this topic, because Bill Gothard, Doug Philips, Mary Pride, Michael Pearl, and so on and so forth, these people were my life. 3) We want to talk about actions? My actions back up exactly what I say. There is truth in what I have to say. There is honesty in my background. My actions can be backed up. My actions can be proven. What do some others here have? A few weak comments about a movement they know nothing about. If actions always match what they say, then some people here have proven themselves to not have all that much worthy to say. 4) Susan, you do, and always will have my support. In your inbox please look for some information that I believe ultimately will help you. These people are Christians, who will show you that first of all, not all Christians are controlling and abusive. They will also show you that it IS possible to break free from the world you are a part of now and the evils of it. There are countless stories and articles written by many of us, myself included, that I believe will help you. Because ultimately everything is about YOU, not some small minded individual who thinks that anything is about him. I am not here to intimidate you. Just offer you support as one who has, while not been in your shoes, at least the same brand. ...
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I would like to thank the last commentor for one of the best laughs that I have had in a very long time. First of all, I would like to congratulate you on being able to use Google to look up Mary Pride. Let me start by saying, do not bring a water gun to a gun fight if you wish to engage in a friendly debate. This is what you have just done. Someone might need to learn a little bit of reading comprehension before responding with a weak comment back in a healthy debate. First of all, I did not state that the Quiverfull movement was Matriarchal. I stated that it was part of a cult that I grew up in that was overall Matriarchal. Far more abuse of children was suffered at the hands of the mothers than the fathers. Quiverfull was only an aspect within the entire bigger picture. Yes, it is correct that Mary Pride wrote a book called The Way Home. However it was never intended to be the start of the Quiverfull movement. It was never intended to be Patriarchal. The ones that turned it the most into a Patriarchal idea was Doug Phillips through Vision Forum, and Bill Gothard through IBLP. Some very sick and twisted individuals turned it into something evil. Quiverfull is not a cult, it is a belief system that can be taken and twisted just like anything else. The Bible can be twisted to cause hate. The Koran can be twisted to cause hate. Paganism can be twisted to cause hate. Atheism can be twisted to cause hate. Going back to the original post as this thread should not be hijacked on this, it is not an easy lifestyle to break free from. Susan, you will always have my support. There is a group that I believe that you should read. Please contact me and I will direct you to a website that will help you. It was started by some wonderful friends of mine and together we helped bring down some of the biggest people with regards to the lifestyle you are trying to break free from. You will find love and encouragement and some great tools to help you. ...
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I will never utter the words I know how you are feeling. However, I am going to say that to a certain extent I know where you are coming from. I grew up in two right wing religious cults. Both were very different. One was very much like you have described. Where the men ruled and the women were to be silent. Bear the children and raise them. They were very much controlled. Abused. Beaten down in the name of God. The second right wing cult I grew up in was the exact opposite. Yes they taught that women were to submit to their husbands, and yes, the Quiverfull movement that you are referencing was very much a part of it, it had a different result. Just like in the world of BDSM, where the submissive actually holds the power, so it was true in the second cult that I was in. It was very much a Matriarchal cult. To quote a previous comment, to say that "Right wing religion is designed to reaffirm the dominance of men, who think they are superior to women. Since men started the Church, they want to keep power and so they preach beliefs to let them keep power," is very much a falsehood and shows a lack of understanding about religion. There are many right wing versions of Christianity where women have an extreme amount of power. The denomination in which my Father is a church minister, women are also ministers, leaders, in positions of power. My sister sits on the highest board of power within the denomination within my Province. It is still very much considered a "Right Wing" Church. Unfortunately, you will find that the abuse you are describing, is not just confined to the right wing church. You will find it not only in Christianity, but in every religion, every race, every walk of life. What is important is breaking free from the abuse and breaking free from the negative influences. You will always have those from the lifestyle that you were in that will always be "praying for you." I still have many people that "pray for me" to this day and I have been free for 8 years. You need to find what is right for YOU. Search, learn, question everything! You do not believe in God? That isn't wrong! Does it mean that you are an Atheist? Not necessarily, because there are many other lifestyles and walks of life out there. I discovered paganism (Wicca) and found many answers there, which made far more sense than what I grew up with. I again have to very strongly disagree with a previous comment that said "In my case, I believe that my moral standards are higher than the vast majority of Christians. Those who are athiests often have high moral because they have thought about morality instead of reacting to fear of punishment by God." That is a very arrogant statement filled with many incorrect assumptions. Everyone is responsible for their own morals, including Christians. While I am no longer a Christian, I know countless people who are Christians. They have morals are of the utmost highest that are born out of true belief, not out of fear. Yes, I know many atheists that I can say the same about, however. On the flip side, I know countless Christians and countless atheists who are nothing more than pond scum. You Susan, are the one who can decide where you would like your morality to be, and how you would like to live your life. True Christianity is not about reacting to a fear of punishment of God. True Christianity is a belief in God and desiring to be the person that you feel God wants you to be. Just like being a pagan. It is about striving to be in tune with the Goddess and being the best person that you can be. Same as Atheism and so on and so forth. If you are forced to believe something, anything, out of fear, it is wrong! I could go on for a very long time but I've said enough for now. You and I have talked in the past, and I am always willing to talk further with you. I am proud of you for wanting to break free. It is the best thing, and also the hardest thing that you will ever do! As someone who has been there, and done that, and have the cards, the letters and the prayers to prove it, I will always cheer you on to keep moving forward!!!  ...
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Blogs are for posting thoughts. Too modify a quote "Religion what is it good for" I won't say "absolutely nothing" in that quote because religions do a lot of charity work that needs to be done and some folks need this crutch to correct a life that they are trashing. A person does not need god or religion to be a good, kind, well balanced, fun, upstanding citizen of the world. Religious books are like any other self-help books, useful. I am glad that you are working towards freedom.
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VERY well said
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