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Open debate
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Open debate I was strolling through blogland, when a post caught my attention. I’m a proud self proclaimed nerd, so any intellectual debate gets my juices flowing. Well this one was about socialism and listed all the alleged benefits we reap from it. I just couldn’t let this discussion past me by. I’m geared up and ready to have a lively discussion when disappointments hits. It was a read only blog. Oh the tragedy. So I’m writing this post. Anyone can join in. If you have a different opinion and can back it up, please participate. Just so we are on the same page I took the liberty of typing out a few definitions. Please check out the post 3875865 since I only took out parts of it. Socialism: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies. Merriam-Webster Dictionary. Democratic socialism is a political ideology that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production, often with an emphasis on Democratic management of enterprises within a socialist economic system. Wikipedia Capitalism: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market Socialism There is nothing more feared and hated in America. Those three syllables conger up images of Big Brother Government ruling over us all, telling us what to eat, wear, buy, and think. Our in national uniform being indoctrinated with propaganda in government education camps that use to be schools, turning them into little slaves. While their parents work twelve hour shifts in the concentration camp that slaughters rich successful billionaires, as the poor and needy get a million dollars a month in welfare. A murderous government waging a war against freedom and liberty to gain complete control over everyone and everything. Does this sounds familiar? To me, it sounds like almost every third world country or better yet sounds like the Soviet Union. The poor working themselves to death for next to nothing while those in power get rich from looting or aid. The poor can have a million dollars in cash but the money isn't worth the paper it’s printed on. The person who wrote this meant to mock the negative image that socialism has. Throwing humor at the description does not explain away that negative image or the trail of blood that follows behind it. History always repeats itself, if we don’t learn from them. Socialism doesn’t work. Towards the end, even the blogger admitted to that fact. If it doesn’t work as a whole and if it rotten throughout, why would we try to use parts of it? There was a list of all the government agencies and services that they provide, but don’t forget it we who provide the money. It’s a little insurance plan. We put money in so when bad stuff happens, we can cover it. Yes we delegate a lot of things we don’t want to do ourselves, but it still comes back to those who produce. Without tax payers, none of these services would exist. Socialism is a system that tells us we are incompetent and can't take care of our own affairs. That the government have to come in and help us. But we employ the government. We are the ones who vote them in, from the janitor to the CEO of a large corporation. Employing a government with limited powers is the ideal but those who want power will always clamor for more. Socialism ,at the root, is control or power over those within it’s borders. I could go on and on about how corrupt and ass backward our government is. But I won’t, I'll try to stick to the topic and keep this short. We don’t need the government to take control of major industries. Individuals came up with their ideas, they made it come into fruition and they should profit from it. A slave is the only person who is forced to work for free. Socialism takes away our ability to produce and to profit from it. If the government controls the economy, divides the profits and redistribute it, how do we decide who get what? How would you measure need? Now earning your profits, you know how to measure that. As an American citizen, you enjoy freedoms that many in other countries do not. Like anything else in this world, our government is not perfect, but you should be thankful everyday that your country has a government that feels an obligation to serve the people and protect their rights and freedoms. This is completely possible because of government, taxes, and socialism. Do you think the private sector would do a better job of governing our country? Do you think corporations would enact laws to help protect and serve you and your family or them and their profits? The reason you can read this blog and the reason I can write it whether you agree with it or not is because of the freedoms we have here in America enforced and protected through socialist means. Our entire civilization depends on us being a people united. Socialism is a glue that binds us together and makes possible the things that we could not accomplish as individuals working against each other. It’s funny. Of all the socialist countries, it is the ones that are mixed with capitalism that are the most free. The more capitalist countries have more freedom. We pay the government, so really they are obligated to do their job. My overall argument is not for a completely socialist nation. This would not work. A completely capitalist nation would not work either. I'm just simply saying that I, as a Democratic Socialist, feel that the two can co-exist. I know this because they always have. Socialism and capitalism have always co-existed in America. I also believe in freedom. I believe options are a form of freedom. Right now in the United States of America, I can send mail through the public postal service or I can choose a private option like FedEx. I can send my to public school or private school. As liberals, we don't want a government takeover, we want options. We think we should have the freedom to be able to choose to have government health care if we don't like our private plan. If we are 18-64, we have no options or freedom over our own health care. I don't understand why this isn't viewed as a corporate takeover of health care. Socialism is not a bad thing. It is a foundation in this country of ours. Claiming socialism is bad because of radical and non-factual comparisons to Hitler and Stalin is like saying all guns are bad because of the Columbine killers and Jared Loughner. National socialism and communism are very, very different from Democratic Socialism here in America. I'd explain further but this topic is for another post, this one is long enough. Besides, socialism defeated Hitler. So let's just stop the madness and have a serious discussion about socialism and the role it plays in America Since there has never been a completely capitalist country, we would never know if it would work. But there has been complete socialist countries and it’s been proven that it doesn’t work. My opinion they can’t coexist. Socialism is the poison that is killing this country, while capitalism can bring a whole new life to it. You say you want options and believe in freedom. How can there be freedom at the point of a gun? A slave is not free. You have no options, if the choice is forced. I leave off with these 2 quotes When you clamor for public ownership of the means of production, you are clamoring for public ownership of the mind. I have taught my strikers that the answer you deserve is only: ‘Try and get it.’... You propose to establish a social order based on the following tenets: that you’re incompetent to run your own life, but competent to run the lives of others – that you’re unfit to exist in freedom, but fit to become an omnipotent ruler – that you’re unable to earn your living by the use of your own intelligence, but able to judge politicians and to vote them into jobs of total power over arts you have never seen, over sciences you have never studied, over achievements of which you have no knowledge, over the gigantic industries where you, by your own definition of your capacity, would be unable successfully to fill the job of assistant greaser. -Ayn Rand The right to life is the source of all rights – and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.-Ayn Rand |
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Hi
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Very good! I enjoy reading you blog. Thank you. 
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Very good! I enjoy reading you blog. Thank you.
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Democratic Socialist - now that's a concept that I'll always find hilarious. It's akin to intentionally making a democracy the proverbial sheep and pack of wolves by design. At it's heart capitalism is nearly the economic equivalent of democracy (though even the purest of democracies would likely still be more tyrannical that the purest of capitalism). So I'd say about the only practical limitation preventing either from being utilized in their purest forms is the shear amount of knowledge/wisdom required on the part of every participant in order for them to be able make their own informed decisions. ...so I'm more of the opinion that the mark of a truly advanced civilization isn't signaled by a large number of laws, regulations and generous government social programs, but how few of those things are required in order to maintain a harmonious society.
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Are you a poly sci major? Very well written and a great topic for debate. Politics isn't a topic that is very well received here.Sadly! Using more than all the road!
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Democratic Socialist - now that's a concept that I'll always find hilarious. It's akin to intentionally making a democracy the proverbial sheep and pack of wolves by design. At it's heart capitalism is nearly the economic equivalent of democracy (though even the purest of democracies would likely still be more tyrannical that the purest of capitalism). So I'd say about the only practical limitation preventing either from being utilized in their purest forms is the shear amount of knowledge/wisdom required on the part of every participant in order for them to be able make their own informed decisions. ...so I'm more of the opinion that the mark of a truly advanced civilization isn't signaled by a large number of laws, regulations and generous government social programs, but how few of those things are required in order to maintain a harmonious society. 
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Are you a poly sci major? Very well written and a great topic for debate. Politics isn't a topic that is very well received here.Sadly!  What can I say? I love new ideas, debating and challenging my own ideas. Thanks for commenting
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in the words of john quincy adams ,it is the inevitable end that all government by man will become corrupted and the power of the government will become tryannical to that end it must be limited and the government must be made to fear the people not the other way around .Democracy is at best a temporary form of governance which will last perhaps 2 centuries. For once the people learn they can vote themselves money from the public trust it will begin to collapse through greed and fear. It will be necessary for a government of sufficient power to fix the problems that were caused.That government can only be a tyrannical totalitarian government , for none other would be of sufficient power to make change,.. we are doomed to fail if man tries to govern himself, it cannot be done and be sustained, for mankind is corrupted and tends to self destruction ,This the cold hard historical truth. I am prepared for the eventual end ,the total destruction of earth and mankind ,tinker bell is not real, unicorns do not exist, and poly anna pleas to be different than we are shown to be is futile . accept the inevitable . you are not your body , you are a being who does not need a body to exist ,and the body will fail ,you will continue to exist somewhere ...there is only one way , the way of truth , all else is useless .
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You started off so well, then you just made a very dark turn. I see that you hold to the nihilist approach. In the words of john quincy adams ,it is the inevitable end that all government by man will become corrupted and the power of the government will become tryannical to that end it must be limited and the government must be made to fear the people not the other way around . I agree with this quote. We as a people do need to curtail governmental powers. A government with unlimited powers is guaranteed to turn tryannical. Let me add a quote that sums up what I think about the rest of your post. To the extent to which a man is rational, life is the premise directing his actions. To the extent to which he is irrational, the premise directing his actions is death.-Ayn Rand
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I get what he's saying about having options and agree it just depends on how much control the government gets but business men are corrupt and the head of those corporations can control decisions I dislike politics but having 100% ideology of one group isn't good a mix of both would be better What I'm saying is government should be limited and should not control industries and production.
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Thank you so much for voicing your opinion. I'm going to have to read it a few times to "make it stick" in my brain. However, I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate you telling me how you feel. By the way, I didn't write it. It's actually someone I found on the internet (I did say that in the preface, but it's difficult with me (sometimes I struggle with clarity and direction.) Wouldn't know by the sheer amount of content I put on my blog, would you?  Live life to it's fullest! If you're bored, Read Hugs Gypsy
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Thank you so much for voicing your opinion. I'm going to have to read it a few times to "make it stick" in my brain. However, I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate you telling me how you feel. By the way, I didn't write it. It's actually someone I found on the internet (I did say that in the preface, but it's difficult with me (sometimes I struggle with clarity and direction.) Wouldn't know by the sheer amount of content I put on my blog, would you? I was just too fired up by a debate to notice. Thanks for bringing a topic that is thoughtful and that encourages debate. 
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Thanks for stopping by and checking it out. I think you did credit who actually wrote it. I was just too fired up by a debate to notice. Thanks for bringing a topic that is thoughtful and that encourages debate. But, I'd like to think I agree with most of what you are saying in response. We're close to me "getting it". I'll be back. I noticed that there was a few of the international bloggers who seemed to be struggling to find something to read. I think Socialism hits us all in different ways. There are some who are afraid of socialism, still others that realize that a Socialist/Democratic/Capitalist Society could not only work...it can thrive. I think some Americans can learn from other countries' system, and they could learn from us. And, well, since I'm such a strong proponent of evolution, I believe that one day our society can evolve into something even greater. We could untie the world by untying the knots the politicians have been creating with their bickering. The government is supposed to be "for the people", but I can't be the only one who feels as though it's "looking out for number one" by many of our elected officials. And, no I'm not just talking in America I read World News, and I read World Blogs. I see all kinds of individuals reaching out in their own way....they are begging this universe for something better than they have right now. They aren't saying things are horrible...they are saying things can be so much Better if We worked Together.  You know, I'm a nerdy girl, and love this shit. I was in Debate in school...long long ago Live life to it's fullest! If you're bored, Read Hugs Gypsy
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Wow, now that I've read that a second time. I'm still not there. But, I'd like to think I agree with most of what you are saying in response. We're close to me "getting it". I'll be back. I noticed that there was a few of the international bloggers who seemed to be struggling to find something to read. I think Socialism hits us all in different ways. There are some who are afraid of socialism, still others that realize that a Socialist/Democratic/Capitalist Society could not only work...it can thrive. I think some Americans can learn from other countries' system, and they could learn from us. And, well, since I'm such a strong proponent of evolution, I believe that one day our society can evolve into something even greater. We could untie the world by untying the knots the politicians have been creating with their bickering. The government is supposed to be "for the people", but I can't be the only one who feels as though it's "looking out for number one" by many of our elected officials. And, no I'm not just talking in America I read World News, and I read World Blogs. I see all kinds of individuals reaching out in their own way....they are begging this universe for something better than they have right now. They aren't saying things are horrible...they are saying things can be so much Better if We worked Together. You know, I'm a nerdy girl, and love this shit. I was in Debate in school...long long ago I was on debate as well. ( I'm having a mental orgasm from this)
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It always bothers me that people think socialism is a good idea. I'm not going to make this long but there's no difference between democratic socialism or just normal socialism. It's just a name change the ideas are exactly the same. Government control. And when government is in control things go sideways. Not just considering the extreme version like the Nazi party you don't know what governments will do with that power so why give it to them. Also the government is ineffective and inefficient when it comes to providing services. The post office is losing millions of taxpayers money while cutting services. Unlike the private companies like FedEx that are making money hand over Fist and adding services because they can innovative and cut costs while the government service providers don't because there's no risk of them going out of business. So why be innovative and cut costs. There was no such thing as tracking numbers or 2 day shipping before the private sector because they need to keep there customers happy because if they don't they don't have jobs anymore. Capitalism is no altruistic. Which is why I think it's villainized. Despite every country that implementing it growing economicly and eventually culturally. People have this idea that self interest is inherently bad. And even though capitalism uses self interest as a means for pushing forward progress and has raised more people out of poverty than anything humans have ever conceived people just don't trust it.
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While I agree that things would be better if we work together, it shouldn't be force. Freedom ends at the point of the gun. I do have questions as to certain points in what you said, but I dont want it to come off as offensive. Can you please go into detail about "Americans can learn from other countries systems, " so I can better pose my question? I was on debate as well. ( I'm having a mental orgasm from this) Just like those same countries could learn from us. I worry about this whole "We are number one" thing that is our countries' mantra. It's a bit disingenuous, wouldn't you say? I mean, we are great at a lot of things. But, we aren't number one at everything. We used to be, back in the days when our political parties used to work together. When they listened to one another, rather than fighting over stupid ass bullshit. He said, she said bull fucking loney. That's what's happened. Reality tv, but in politics. Sure, my opinion. I believe hybrids are possible. Words and definitions evolve through time. A pot used to be something you cooked in, not it also has other meanings. Socialist...Capitalism...These words are evolving. We can make them mean whatever we want. Why? We do live in a free nation. Or, we're supposed to be living in a free nation. But, are we, those of us in America, really free? Shall we talk about guns? Because as you pointed out in your response to me, if it's forced? Freedom ends. So, in this country, where the glorification of guns has become a real thing, are we really free? Or did we trade our freedoms long ago (as I believe we have) for things like corporatism? I'm having a braingasm (mental orgasm) myself, nerdy girl . Live life to it's fullest! If you're bored, Read Hugs Gypsy
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It always bothers me that people think socialism is a good idea. I'm not going to make this long but there's no difference between democratic socialism or just normal socialism. It's just a name change the ideas are exactly the same. Government control. And when government is in control things go sideways. Not just considering the extreme version like the Nazi party you don't know what governments will do with that power so why give it to them. Also the government is ineffective and inefficient when it comes to providing services. The post office is losing millions of taxpayers money while cutting services. Unlike the private companies like FedEx that are making money hand over Fist and adding services because they can innovative and cut costs while the government service providers don't because there's no risk of them going out of business. So why be innovative and cut costs. There was no such thing as tracking numbers or 2 day shipping before the private sector because they need to keep there customers happy because if they don't they don't have jobs anymore. Capitalism is no altruistic. Which is why I think it's villainized. Despite every country that implementing it growing economicly and eventually culturally. People have this idea that self interest is inherently bad. And even though capitalism uses self interest as a means for pushing forward progress and has raised more people out of poverty than anything humans have ever conceived people just don't trust it.
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I mean their systems for solving some of their problems. Such as different court systems; political systems; gun laws; etc. Just like those same countries could learn from us. I worry about this whole "We are number one" thing that is our countries' mantra. It's a bit disingenuous, wouldn't you say? I mean, we are great at a lot of things. But, we aren't number one at everything. We used to be, back in the days when our political parties used to work together. When they listened to one another, rather than fighting over stupid ass bullshit. He said, she said bull fucking loney. That's what's happened. Reality tv, but in politics. Sure, my opinion. I believe hybrids are possible. Words and definitions evolve through time. A pot used to be something you cooked in, not it also has other meanings. Socialist...Capitalism...These words are evolving. We can make them mean whatever we want. Why? We do live in a free nation. Or, we're supposed to be living in a free nation. But, are we, those of us in America, really free? Shall we talk about guns? Because as you pointed out in your response to me, if it's forced? Freedom ends. So, in this country, where the glorification of guns has become a real thing, are we really free? Or did we trade our freedoms long ago (as I believe we have) for things like corporatism? I'm having a braingasm (mental orgasm) myself, nerdy girl .
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To me, words have meaning. Many words are use to identify what something is. Some words the meaning will never change due to the millions of people's blood spilt because of it. Socialism is soaked in blood no matter how much a person try to pretty it up history has shown what socialism brings. As to the gun issuse, I own a gun. A citizen right to bear arms is important. I stated earlier that freedom ends at the point of a gun. The government has the biggest gun. I can't choose if I want to pay taxes, I cant choose what countries we give aid to and I cant choose if we go to war or not. If I didnt pay taxes, my property would get seized and my freedom would get taken away. Going back to what I earlier stated a citizen right to bear arms is important. Look at any country get gained too much power over their citizens. Guns were the first to go. It's easier to keep an unarmed person held hostage if you are the only one with the gun. I don't mind the people who have a legal right to have guns, I do mind when only criminals and the government has guns. You wondered did we trade our freedom for corporatism. I know we traded our freedom for a supposedly "safety". Scare tactics that imbued those in the government with more power. Would you agree that our definitions have broadened over time? I don't wish for more government control, in truth, I think that I'm wrong all the time. What I'm trying to to is learn from people. I actually am not a gun owner, but know several responsible gun owners. I have not one issue with these people. Its those who "play" with their guns when they're drunk, or those who don't have the first idea how to responsibly own a gun that bother me. And, though I don't have any concrete answers about how to fix our gun violence problem...to say we don't have one would be silly. We did trade a certain amount of our freedoms for safety, or what passes as us feeling safe. I actually don't think we're any safer than we were when I was a kid. And, I don't think we are any better or worse off, things are just different. I swear, sometimes I can stay on point...today is not one. LOLOLOL Live life to it's fullest! If you're bored, Read Hugs Gypsy
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Let's start here: Would you agree that our definitions have broadened over time? I don't wish for more government control, in truth, I think that I'm wrong all the time. What I'm trying to to is learn from people. I actually am not a gun owner, but know several responsible gun owners. I have not one issue with these people. Its those who "play" with their guns when they're drunk, or those who don't have the first idea how to responsibly own a gun that bother me. And, though I don't have any concrete answers about how to fix our gun violence problem...to say we don't have one would be silly. We did trade a certain amount of our freedoms for safety, or what passes as us feeling safe. I actually don't think we're any safer than we were when I was a kid. And, I don't think we are any better or worse off, things are just different. I swear, sometimes I can stay on point...today is not one. LOLOLOL
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Yes, I would agree to that but like I said previously some words won't change. For example, n/ $$#@ is a word that can never have it's meaning "evolve ". No matter how many time people might use it to refer to themselves, this word haven't evolve. It still is the same offensive word that has a trail of blood after it. So yeah, while words may take on different meanings some words will never change. You wouldnt use the word holocaust to describe a festive party, would you? These words have waay too much blood attached for us to forget. As to the guns, there should be requirement ( I dont know if some states do require this) take gun safety classes so people know the proper way to carry a gun. Maybe it nicer where you are. Are you in the states? To me at it seems to get worse. Unfortunately for me, this is the only country that is more capitalist then socialist. So there pretty much no where else to go, if things goes south. I live in Florida, currently. No, it's not even a bit better here (except in my head, where I try to live, but most people find that a bit "crazy". LO  I think things have gotten worse over time, and I'm more than a little tired of the inaction of our government. I'm more than a little tired of the infighting and drama that they seem to want to create rather than solving problems. Live life to it's fullest! If you're bored, Read Hugs Gypsy
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You are right, there are words that won't evolve with time, and some can't ever be recovered from the mess our society has made from the. The "n" word being a perfect example. Love your brain, love it. I live in Florida, currently. No, it's not even a bit better here (except in my head, where I try to live, but most people find that a bit "crazy". LO I think things have gotten worse over time, and I'm more than a little tired of the inaction of our government. I'm more than a little tired of the infighting and drama that they seem to want to create rather than solving problems. See that the important issue. Yes, we delegate alot of things to the government but if we want things to get better it start with the individual. I just loving this. I love how you challenge my ideas so I can better them
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See that the important issue. Yes, we delegate alot of things to the government but if we want things to get better it start with the individual. I just loving this. I love how you challenge my ideas so I can better themLordy, we could put on a panel that would be fascinating, I think. I would agree that individuals' individual efforts are becoming more and more stunted with time. I've noticed a trend where we don't even trust our government the way we used to. I grew up in an era that we not only trusted our government, but we also looked up to our leaders. However, I believe that has devolved over time because of a multitude of reasons. Some of which, I believe, can be directly linked back to media and the rise of cable television over the last thirty years. It's like our collective consciousnesses have been traumatized repeatedly be news organizations and media outlets alike. With twenty four hour news cycles and the rise of the internet, we have this steady stream of information coming at us from a variety of different places. And, I feel that many people are stunted by this information. They don't know what to do with it,. They don't know how to "deal". What they should do, in my opinion, is turn off the television and experience humanity threw a different "lens", as I have been trying to do. They need to realize that things aren't as bad as it may seem, and there are lots of us who are working together...rather than allowing our arguments to dissolve into screaming matches. This, is all my opinion, and I could be wrong...but you know I feel this way. I just want other readers to know this Live life to it's fullest! If you're bored, Read Hugs Gypsy
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I'm loving your last statement. Not saying that I didn't like your whole post, which I do. ...and since there is no way to take a bow I guess I'll go with this: 
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 ...reading through some of the other responses - there are a lot of interesting points being written and potential root causes being identified --- but I think the sole largest problem isn't with the larger picture it's with each of our own perception of what the larger picture "should" look like. .... or as to put it another -- rather more vulgar way: The world is perfect it's individuals within the world that are fucked up. People need to be free to succeed - or fail should they so choose, to care or not - as they deem fit, and though it may cause utter chaos that chaos is the nearest thing to perfection we may ever experience in this life as it is the result of each and everyone of use being free and being able to exercise our own free will (which includes dealing with the consequences of our actions - or inaction). So like any good construction project there's good to be a lot of dust and a really big mess as everyone jostles to get their tasks done.
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...reading through some of the other responses - there are a lot of interesting points being written and potential root causes being identified --- but I think the sole largest problem isn't with the larger picture it's with each of our own perception of what the larger picture "should" look like. .... or as to put it another -- rather more vulgar way: The world is perfect it's individuals within the world that are fucked up. People need to be free to succeed - or fail should they so choose, to care or not - as they deem fit, and though it may cause utter chaos that chaos is the nearest thing to perfection we may ever experience in this life as it is the result of each and everyone of use being free and being able to exercise our own free will (which includes dealing with the consequences of our actions - or inaction). So like any good construction project there's good to be a lot of dust and a really big mess as everyone jostles to get their tasks done.
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